If a historical person existed named “Jesus” who was also a vocal proponent of Jewish reform, existed that does not make the “Jesus” in the bible a real person. These two people would be mutually exclusive.
Real people can’t preform magic. Real people are not born to virgins. Real people cannot be resurrected from the dead after days. There is no person who ever existed who could walk on water and turn water to wine. That “Jesus” is fiction through and through.
The Bible is a story book. A book of fables. At best it’s historical fiction.
Christian Jesus is a fantasy.
So what you’re saying is if Bob tells me (your name) has a flying tiger, and I later find out you don’t have a flying tiger… you no longer exists?
Hate religion all you want but don’t shit on history. In all likelihood there was a Jesus the story is based off of. Who was probably real. We have lots of non religious documents that mention him. The Quran mentions him. He probably existed as a person.
Like you exist as a person even though you don’t have a flying tiger.
Militant atheists are just as problematic as religious zealots.
Both annoying, pushy, and insisting you’re way is the only way. Everyone else is damned.
I am atheist, I wouldn’t say militant. I am anti-theist. Religion, IMO has done far more harm that good. Thats beside the point.
I did not post that it was “my way is the only way.” I offered a perspective. You went off the rails and began name calling… then continued to argue with a few people for an extended period of time. Who has to it have it their way?
Again, I offered a perspective. Take or leave it, I don’t care.
Have a wonderful day.
Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, and Enver Hoxha
Pick up a book every once I a while.
Religion isn’t the root of all evil lol. People have been killed in the name of aithism, capitalism, science, expansion, gold, resources and yes sometimes religion. It’s not like religion is the big thing we go to war over.
We are at war with Iran right now and religion has nothing to do with it at all.
Dude! You should’ve said that from the beginning! I’m a reasonable person too who just likes to talk!
Stalin killed arguabley for aithiesm. He definitely killed people for thier beliefs….
But I understand your question “did they kill for aithiesm (why can’t I spell that lol)”
No…. But if you acknowledge nopolean of France wasn’t killing people FOR aithiesm. You also have to admit no one was fighting the crusades to actually protect the holly land.
He’ll Donald trump and his followers say he was appointed by Jesus and practically worship him. Does that make the Iran conflict a holy war?
No religion doesn’t have anything to due with it.
I’ve been drinking so go easy and assume I meant things in good faith
So what you’re saying is if Bob tells me (your name) has a flying tiger, and I later find out you don’t have a flying tiger… you no longer exists?
They did not say someone named Jesus did not exist.
There’s a difference between believing “Joe who had a tiger and a bear and an elephant”, and assuming that there might have been 3 different Joe’s, one with a tiger, one with a bear and one with an elephant, each of them in a different period. Saying “Joe with 3 animals did not exist” does not imply that those Joe’s did not exist.
I’m not a historian but what I’ve heard (must have been on Alex O’Connor’s podcast) is that even some of the possible historical Jesuses (or “Jesusi” :D) had things going on that were not compatible with what the biblical Jesus was all about. (Such as being cult leader proclaiming that world will end in few years.)
Fictionalize any real person to the point absurdity, and you have a fictional non-existent person from a fairy tale. Saying a dude has a flying tiger is just lies. There is a difference. If you can’t see that, I’m cool with that. We’re all allowed to believe things.
Oh you’re the same guy. I don’t remember name calling bit if I did I’m sorry. I had probably started drinking and didn’t mean anything by it. Or something of the sorts. Might’ve caught me at a a bad time .
You’re allowed to be atheist and I’m allowed to be religious. Neither one of us are going to force anything down anyone throats? Then we’re both cool.
As for is Jesus real argument. We both seem to have different ideas of what exactly makes something “real”
In not going to try to convince you Noah’s ark is proven lol. From my view point Jesus past into the threshold of “close enough” you disagree, there’s evidence but you don’t believe it meets that threshold.
Agree to disagree. It’s a battle of semantics at this point.
plumbers exist, so do people named starting with M or J. so do people who walk around and yap about end of the world and/or resurrection. and even people who listen to them.
however…
plumbers that can jump 5 times their own height? people named with M that grow 2x when they eat a mushroom? people that turn water into wine? that’s a completely different story.
sentence like “Jesus did not exist” always need to be interpreted in context. when someone says it in context of religion or adjacent, and you respond by “but people called Jesus existed” then you’re just being obtuse.
or rather, playing Motte and Bailey: f…ing OF COURSE you can defend the that Bob—different one than in the story, in particular, a tigerless Bob—exists, but that’s not what is being disputed. what’s being disputed is the existence of Bob with the tiger, and the motivation is to challenge the whole story.
Again this is just semantics at this point. We have different idea of what’s necessary to be “historically” a real person. You are allowed your opinions. What is life anyway? It’s all philosophical.
But…. If you are enjoying this conversation like I am we can continue.
Was king tut a really person? Did Pharos exist.
What about Charles I of England
Socrates would love to discuss if he counts as real.
the warrens
I’m to impatient to wait so to explain my point.
god kings. Appointed by their many gods with the Devine ability to keep Egypt together
the last god king of England . Last to held to claim they had a direction connection, the the blessed blood line and personally approved by god himself…demanded he should rule England and expand outwards.
there are NO works for Socrates. Not a single scrap of paper. Not a statue made during his life, no grave, no memorial. But countless scholars of the ancient world repeat his teaching and give him credit.
Socrates is one of the most well know ln philosophers of all time and there isn’t any proof he ever lived.
4 they have a house, they might be alive, you could meet them! and several books about how they can sense the spiritual world and fight demons and hold possessed dolls in their safe room.
Do those people exist?
Socrates is one of the most well know ln philosophers of all time and there isn’t any proof he ever lived.
when is the fact about the level of certainty we have about Socrates’s existence relevant, though? it depends.
if someone just mentions some specific idea that is often attributed to Socrates, then it’s probably totally irrelevant and you would be just "well, actually"ing someone. (which will backfire esp. if they actually know that full well and can/will stand for themselves)
if someone is defending a specific idea using an argument from authority of Socrates himself, then it’s probably pretty relevant. at best it’s an invitation to skip a bad argument path and take the focus back to the potential merit of the idea itself. (ofc this is regardless of whether you like that idea or not, learning what the other person perceive as valuable about the idea is usually more interesting than who they think came up with it)
if someone does the same but based on moral authority, then it’s the same principle, but probably much more important
if someone creates religion based on teachings of Socrates, then it’s pretty much important (although often seemingly ineffective, and in some cases, risky)
If someone starts asking questions about Socrates as a historical person (and heck, even questions specifcally about history of Socrates’ state of mind–see title of this whole post), then it’s obviously the most important thing they need to learn before continuing their research or pondering.
The last point bullet point describes what @Phoenixz did here, in the beginning of this sub-thread. (Just for Jesus Christ, not Socrates, of course.)
people exist, plumbers exist, people named mario exist, is there a plumber that can grow twice his size, shot fireballs using a flower, can jump four times his height unassisted, or fights a giant sentient reptile that breaths fire? no.
you can argue jesus was a man, but he is not the jesus of the bible.
If a historical person existed named “Jesus” who was also a vocal proponent of Jewish reform, existed that does not make the “Jesus” in the bible a real person. These two people would be mutually exclusive. Real people can’t preform magic. Real people are not born to virgins. Real people cannot be resurrected from the dead after days. There is no person who ever existed who could walk on water and turn water to wine. That “Jesus” is fiction through and through. The Bible is a story book. A book of fables. At best it’s historical fiction. Christian Jesus is a fantasy.
So what you’re saying is if Bob tells me (your name) has a flying tiger, and I later find out you don’t have a flying tiger… you no longer exists?
Hate religion all you want but don’t shit on history. In all likelihood there was a Jesus the story is based off of. Who was probably real. We have lots of non religious documents that mention him. The Quran mentions him. He probably existed as a person.
Like you exist as a person even though you don’t have a flying tiger.
Militant atheists are just as problematic as religious zealots.
Both annoying, pushy, and insisting you’re way is the only way. Everyone else is damned.
It’s the same playbook lol.
I am atheist, I wouldn’t say militant. I am anti-theist. Religion, IMO has done far more harm that good. Thats beside the point. I did not post that it was “my way is the only way.” I offered a perspective. You went off the rails and began name calling… then continued to argue with a few people for an extended period of time. Who has to it have it their way? Again, I offered a perspective. Take or leave it, I don’t care. Have a wonderful day.
Lol
Trying to be the enlightened centrist and saying this. Show me the genocides being committed currently in the name of atheism.
I dont particularly care, I have religious friends but come on.
Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, and Enver Hoxha
Pick up a book every once I a while.
Religion isn’t the root of all evil lol. People have been killed in the name of aithism, capitalism, science, expansion, gold, resources and yes sometimes religion. It’s not like religion is the big thing we go to war over.
We are at war with Iran right now and religion has nothing to do with it at all.
So i don’t really want to read for this subject but i like conversation. Not trying to facetious.
Did Stalin, Zedong, etc really kill because of atheistic principles? Or more politically?
Dude! You should’ve said that from the beginning! I’m a reasonable person too who just likes to talk!
Stalin killed arguabley for aithiesm. He definitely killed people for thier beliefs….
But I understand your question “did they kill for aithiesm (why can’t I spell that lol)”
No…. But if you acknowledge nopolean of France wasn’t killing people FOR aithiesm. You also have to admit no one was fighting the crusades to actually protect the holly land.
He’ll Donald trump and his followers say he was appointed by Jesus and practically worship him. Does that make the Iran conflict a holy war?
No religion doesn’t have anything to due with it.
I’ve been drinking so go easy and assume I meant things in good faith
They did not say someone named Jesus did not exist.
There’s a difference between believing “Joe who had a tiger and a bear and an elephant”, and assuming that there might have been 3 different Joe’s, one with a tiger, one with a bear and one with an elephant, each of them in a different period. Saying “Joe with 3 animals did not exist” does not imply that those Joe’s did not exist.
I’m not a historian but what I’ve heard (must have been on Alex O’Connor’s podcast) is that even some of the possible historical Jesuses (or “Jesusi” :D) had things going on that were not compatible with what the biblical Jesus was all about. (Such as being cult leader proclaiming that world will end in few years.)
He said Jesus is a fictional figure. He probably existed and yes there were more than one person with similar but that doesn’t change my argument.
If you say “this is Bob and he has a tiger” and I find out he does not have a tiger… he still exists as a person.
But you say “the stories about Bob don’t line up with any specific Bob”
Okay, that doesn’t stop Bob from being just because someone got a story wrong.
Complete asinine argument.
Fictionalize any real person to the point absurdity, and you have a fictional non-existent person from a fairy tale. Saying a dude has a flying tiger is just lies. There is a difference. If you can’t see that, I’m cool with that. We’re all allowed to believe things.
Oh you’re the same guy. I don’t remember name calling bit if I did I’m sorry. I had probably started drinking and didn’t mean anything by it. Or something of the sorts. Might’ve caught me at a a bad time .
You’re allowed to be atheist and I’m allowed to be religious. Neither one of us are going to force anything down anyone throats? Then we’re both cool.
As for is Jesus real argument. We both seem to have different ideas of what exactly makes something “real”
In not going to try to convince you Noah’s ark is proven lol. From my view point Jesus past into the threshold of “close enough” you disagree, there’s evidence but you don’t believe it meets that threshold.
Agree to disagree. It’s a battle of semantics at this point.
I finished this argument 6 days ago. Feel free to discuss amongst yourselves.
now you are just talking about some different guy named bob.
mario is based on a person, but mario is a fictional character
Mario is based on a plumber. Do plumbers exist?
plumbers exist, so do people named starting with M or J. so do people who walk around and yap about end of the world and/or resurrection. and even people who listen to them.
however…
plumbers that can jump 5 times their own height? people named with M that grow 2x when they eat a mushroom? people that turn water into wine? that’s a completely different story.
sentence like “Jesus did not exist” always need to be interpreted in context. when someone says it in context of religion or adjacent, and you respond by “but people called Jesus existed” then you’re just being obtuse.
or rather, playing Motte and Bailey: f…ing OF COURSE you can defend the that Bob—different one than in the story, in particular, a tigerless Bob—exists, but that’s not what is being disputed. what’s being disputed is the existence of Bob with the tiger, and the motivation is to challenge the whole story.
But Mario the plumber existed.
Again this is just semantics at this point. We have different idea of what’s necessary to be “historically” a real person. You are allowed your opinions. What is life anyway? It’s all philosophical.
But…. If you are enjoying this conversation like I am we can continue.
Was king tut a really person? Did Pharos exist.
What about Charles I of England
Socrates would love to discuss if he counts as real.
the warrens
I’m to impatient to wait so to explain my point.
god kings. Appointed by their many gods with the Devine ability to keep Egypt together
the last god king of England . Last to held to claim they had a direction connection, the the blessed blood line and personally approved by god himself…demanded he should rule England and expand outwards.
there are NO works for Socrates. Not a single scrap of paper. Not a statue made during his life, no grave, no memorial. But countless scholars of the ancient world repeat his teaching and give him credit.
Socrates is one of the most well know ln philosophers of all time and there isn’t any proof he ever lived.
4 they have a house, they might be alive, you could meet them! and several books about how they can sense the spiritual world and fight demons and hold possessed dolls in their safe room. Do those people exist?
when is the fact about the level of certainty we have about Socrates’s existence relevant, though? it depends.
if someone just mentions some specific idea that is often attributed to Socrates, then it’s probably totally irrelevant and you would be just "well, actually"ing someone. (which will backfire esp. if they actually know that full well and can/will stand for themselves)
if someone is defending a specific idea using an argument from authority of Socrates himself, then it’s probably pretty relevant. at best it’s an invitation to skip a bad argument path and take the focus back to the potential merit of the idea itself. (ofc this is regardless of whether you like that idea or not, learning what the other person perceive as valuable about the idea is usually more interesting than who they think came up with it)
if someone does the same but based on moral authority, then it’s the same principle, but probably much more important
if someone creates religion based on teachings of Socrates, then it’s pretty much important (although often seemingly ineffective, and in some cases, risky)
If someone starts asking questions about Socrates as a historical person (and heck, even questions specifcally about history of Socrates’ state of mind–see title of this whole post), then it’s obviously the most important thing they need to learn before continuing their research or pondering.
The last point bullet point describes what
@Phoenixzdid here, in the beginning of this sub-thread. (Just for Jesus Christ, not Socrates, of course.)people exist, plumbers exist, people named mario exist, is there a plumber that can grow twice his size, shot fireballs using a flower, can jump four times his height unassisted, or fights a giant sentient reptile that breaths fire? no.
you can argue jesus was a man, but he is not the jesus of the bible.
LOL, I didn’t read your post and made basically the exact same argument.
at least I’m happy I’m not wasting my time on social media alone 🙃
Right so Jesus existed . Glad we agree.
The way I see it is I said “Jesus at the very least existed and was vocal enough to be mentioned “
You’re argument is stomping your feet and saying “but that wasn’t YOUR Jesus so you are wrong”
It’s sounds really pathetic hearing you two try to disprove my idea of Jesus doesn’t exist when you haven’t even ask who I think Jesus was lol.
You don’t even know what my argument is you just know I’m wrong lol. Pathetic.
So you say non religious stuff mention him then mention the Quran. Yep good argument there.
You’ll notice the Quran was said separately from the other stuff. I separated the two because it’s a religious book but not the Bible.