Mod Note: I’m bending the "no politics’ rule to highlight a disgusting trend I’ve been seeing on Lemmy lately. Due to the sheer volume of comments fitting that trend and the huge number downvotes given to anyone who speaks out against it, I’m convinced this opinion is truly unpopular in the Lemmy-verse. This is also topical and important enough to merit discussion or at least to provide a point of reflection. So while it touches on politics, that’s merely the framing device of current events being used to highlight a larger problem.
As you’re inevitably downvoting this, at least take a good, long look in the mirror while you do so.
The sheer number of people here praising the shooter, advocating for, glorifying, or just flat out calling for violence has been a real eye opener and litmus test for the kind of people I’ve surrounded myself with on this platform. Suffice it to say, a lot of you have failed that test spectacularly.
A rational, independent thinker should be able to condemn this kind of violence even when it’s targeted towards their “enemies.” Political violence has absolutely NO PLACE in a healthy society, and no one should be praising or advocating for it. No one. Ever. This is one thing that, regardless of the paradox of tolerance, should be universally condemned.
There are, apparently, a ton of extremists here that don’t see themselves as such because they believe their extremism is justified and that they’re on the right side of history. Ironically, which is what all extremists think.
This goes back further than just yesterdays’s events. For example, it’s been a common refrain since the Supreme Court presidential immunity decision that, paraphrased, “The current non-dictator president should do dictator things to stop the other dictator”. Which is just another flavor of “Extremism is bad except when it’s my flavor of extremism”.
Don’t give me that “it’s just gallows humor”, “I’m oppressed, and he deserved it”, “if you had a time machine, wouldn’t you go back to 1934…”, “we haven’t been a healthy society for X years…”, or other excuses. This is a BFD with major implications and ramifications, and y’all Lemmings are treating like we just missed the exit ramp to Utopia and are trying to find a wide spot to make a U-turn.
It’s certainly fine to have no sympathy for the guy (I sure as hell don’t), but it’s another thing entirely to be cheering on, promoting, and/or advocating for extremist stances like those being thrown out lately.
You say you want a better society? Then act like it!
Moments like this are the true test of one’s character and intellectual honesty, and I’m beyond disappointed in so many of you.
I agree with you, however denouncing political violence doesn’t need to extend to fawning.
This is my favorite proposed response I’ve seen:
If I was a Dem asked what I think this would be my short statement:
History has shown us that political violence like this is a hallmark of authoritarian states.
That it turned against the man inciting it shows how slippery and dangerous our current moment is.
Come November we have a choice – an America where a man like Trump, who believes lynching his political enemies is fine, sits in the white house while fires of political retribution burn across the nation; or an America where our fragile democracy rests in less unhinged hands, safe for the moment.
Preach.
We have to have principles, which we hold even when inconvenient and distasteful. When we try to improve the world we are asking other people to give something up for principles, and we can’t realistically do that if we don’t demonstrate principles of our own.
Basic human rights, really basic rights, we should be able to agree on.
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Don’t murder people, don’t celebrate murder, don’t encourage people to commit murder
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Being able to speak, and communicate your position, concerns, and wants without fear of silencing.
Bonus points:
- Golden rule, only do/force onto others what you would want done/forced onto you.
These are just the starting points, I hope we can find common ground here.
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I’m certainly not upset that someone tried to take out the guy that literally said he wanted to become a dictator if elected. I don’t think that political assassination is the right move in most situations, this included. On the contrary, I think someone should put a bullet in Putin’s head. So I ask where do we draw the line? Currently the system is corrupt and is shielding Trump from consequences. That leaves the people with few options. What is 2A for if not to defend the country from a tyranical dictator? To me, this is a “leopards ate your face” situation. Trump has been fucking around, and the people are bypassing the broken legal system so he can find out. I’m sad he lived.
Edit: To stir the pot a little more, I’m all for guns being illegal. If there were better gun policies in the USA, this wouldn’t have been possible. So this is Republican policy in action.
“Character” is just as much a social construct as gender is. What you call a “test of character” I call a “natural human reaction.”
When you learned about all the evil Hitler did, did you scold the people who celebrated his death? What about Stalin? Pol Pot? Mao? The US government assassinated Bin Laden and the Iraqi people hanged Hussein- did you decry them not being tried for their crimes? Should people not be happy that Lee Harvey Oswald got what he gave out?
Plenty of historians have drawn parallels between what’s happening in the US today and where Weimar Germany was in the 1920’s. Obviously I’m not saying that Trump is on the same level as the other people I mentioned, but if a person truly sees the historical connections, do you blame them for trying to avert what comes next using more extreme methods?
The fact is, political violence has been ingrained into American myth since its inception. Every year of public school we’re taught that the people who overthrew the government with violence were right to do so because they succeeded, while the people who tried to secede with violence were wrong to do so because they failed. Why would you expect any American to not think otherwise? People like Washington and John Brown are hailed as great American heroes for using violence.
On top of that, Donald Trump is a man that the legal system is bending over backwards to prevent him from facing any consequences whatsoever from crimes he’s committed. The “process” isn’t working- is it a shock that when the system is failing the people, the people will take matters into their hands? The voice of the people is systematically being silenced; people will therefore resort to whatever means they have to make themselves heard. This is a constant throughout all of human history.
And not just that, but Donald Trump is the head of a political party that shrugs its shoulders when hundreds of children are murdered in schools or churches or malls annually. Every time a school shooting happens, Republicans rush to decry Democrats for “politicizing” a tragedy to avoid any sort of gun control legislation from even being discussed. Should people not feel some sort of vindication at seeing the party that refuses to address gun violence in the US suffering from that refusal?
So, yeah. I think that someone being upset that a person tried to assassinate a political candidate is a rational response. But I also think it’s not unreasonable to have other feelings about it too.
The founding fathers did not attack the British. They declared their independence, and then were invaded. Defense and attack are different things.
It’s true that the Confederacy was itself invaded after declaring its own independence, no question. But then what values were being defended? The right to own other humans as chattel? Not quite the same.
The Americans did shoot first. Militiamen marched on powder and arms warehouses in Lexington and Concord and after being ordered to disperse by a British colonial, shot at the regulars assembled there.
Yes, and the Confederates shot first in the US Civil War. However, who fired the first bullet has nothing to do with who is invading who, or who is starting a war. These are all three different things. That would be like saying the first shot of WW1 was the one that killed the Archduke, and not the actual countries that declared war on each other and marshalled their armies.
There are many ways to respond to a single atrocity or even battle. The British could have, if they wished, withdrawn. Similarly, Fort Sumpter could have, if they wished, surrendered.
Well said.
This is how we genuinely defend liberty and equality, the values so many brave soldiers died on battlefields all over the world to protect. Far more effectively than wishing for yet another blood drenched battlefield, liable to get the same results as all those in centuries past.
Did the US Civil War end racism? Did WW2 end fascism? Did the assassinations of MLK Jr or Abraham Lincoln end the fight for civil rights? No. Because ideas cannot be destroyed, they can only be effectively fought with other, better ideas. Not blood and steel.
Defense with violence from other, already-engaged violence is one thing. Accelerating towards new violence is another, and is not going to truly fix a problem.
Political violence has absolutely no place in a healthy society
But we aren’t in a healthy society. If anything, this shooting is proof of it. This isn’t an excuse. This is a claim that your arguments will fall on deaf ears.
I’m not cheering this (I would go as far as saying that I hate what happened), but I don’t think people who have/are doing so, are displaying abject character or intellectual dishonesty. I think they are misreading the current political context, and I think nothing good will come of this.
Trump has caused unknowable deaths from the policies put into place during his presidency, and with Project 2025 would (will?) cause even more.
Pacifism becomes extremism when it cares more about policing and shaming those who vent their frustration at the current state of things. “missed the exit ramp to utopia” is a hell of a way to convince people to listen to what you have to say with an open mind.
Political violence has been happening for years, and this is what gets us a mod post ? I would venture that I am just as disappointed in my fellow lemmings as you are, but frankly, this feels almost as tone-deaf and unhelpful as those calling for blood.
Now is the time for constructive advice. Bandying about “extremism” helps no cause but that of inaction.
You want a better society? Go outside and organize. Help people feel prepared for their future. Leave those calling for blood on an online forum to be picked up by the feds and law enforcement. Or talk to people like you care about them, not picking up after the mess they will make.
People are dying of hunger, of lack of shelter, of preventable diseases, of working 3 jobs without breaking even, and they just saw one of the rich fucks that spent 4 years making their lives worse dodge death and supercharge his followers. Now you expect them to calm down because someone online invokes “rational, independent thinkers”, after preemptively accusing them of downvoting a post that they have yet to read.
Shooting Trump is not how we get through this. Making this post with this tone is not how we get through this, either. I don’t have the answers beyond “find a better way to get your point across or you will just push away those you are trying to reach”. Hopefully I have not, myself, fallen into the same trap with this comment.
Don’t worry man, I’ve noticed an uptick in crap, but for the most part I’ve just seen a large uptick in trolls. They’re coming out of the woodwork right now, they latch onto stuff like this to stir the pot.
You and I don’t agree on everything, but we definitely agree on this. Just don’t feed the trolls
