cross-posted from: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/10508286
(Stats that show boosting ICE funding is a bipartisan policy)
the libs dont want to hear they may have been abused by their party.
“an entire year of people being ILLEGALLY deported or disappeared” true, state violence against anyone is only okay when it’s done legally, with due process and for the good of the national people’s
To all you libs on lemmy: “If it don’t apply, let it fly” as they say. If you think this post isn’t about you, it isn’t about you. If this post is about you, maybe consider why that’s an issue.
I always held that the creation of the entire DHS was a slight overreaction to like 20 guys armed with box cutters…
It really was muddled through while Iraq was being drummed up, too. I remember working a protest in 2003 and there being this talk about DHS implementing fascism. At the time I felt the impending war was more important topic, not quite realizing how interconnected it all was.
It’s good that you recognize how interconnected everything is. That’s an important piece of the puzzle. These days it’s that all the oligarchs are pedophiles, engaged in kidnapping immigrant children, and creating crises to justify those kidnappings. Everything is at the same time a distraction from everything else intended to keep you from uniting on what specifically should be protested, and also a genuine component of the overall mechanism by which we’re all tortured
Whats that story about?
9/11
Who cares why people are protesting, as long as they are it’s good?
Yeah. As I’ve seen someone else put it, “we’re glad you’re here” is far better than “what took you so long”
Until they go back to brunch after electing Gavin Newsom.
I never get the “we were doing it first” toxicity. Why should it matter why the newcomers were ignorant if they want to join the cause? Why create new enemies just to protect your “pure” reasons? That kind of separationism is exactly what keeps the ones you should focus on in power, and they want it that way. A divided resistance will fail.
I agree with your point, however it’s also frustrating how obvious it was that all the post-9/11 powers we gave the government would be abused.
The PATRIOT Act was a fucking power grab, and obviously was in place in case a crisis came into play. No way something that couldn’t be read in that short a time before approval was written that fast.
Because the majority of “leftists” are exclusively online and their entire lives revolve around internet points derived from having the best and purest ideologies
Where do you think the majority of “rightists”, “libertarians”, and “liberals” are spending their time nowadays? The mall? Everybody is terminally online, apparently including you.
True but my political existence actually isn’t and I do stuff irl
Too many people just preach dramatic purity online and nothing else
yeah. for a lot of the attitudes i see on lemmy about how politics should work i’m like… where are you? i’m out in these streets and i don’t see you. a lot of what people are calling for don’t work until we have mass support and to have mass support we need people outside.
Maybe I’m just mostly in lefty circles, but who the fuck wasn’t mad until Renee Goode and Alex Pretti? I’ve been seeing constant rage against ice for a couple of years now atleast.
white middle class people, and then other middle class people. Do you not know anyone in their 40s or older with a family?
No, you’re right, plenty were mad before too. There seems to be a new push lately on trying to make this a race issue to divide the left. I’ve seen a major uptick in this framing lately.
If someone favors ICE because it’s a “race issue” they were never on our side to begin with.
You’re right about that! But that’s not what I meant.
What I mean is there’s a seemingly organized effort to create infighting between those against ICE by attempting to create issues and sow discord. It distracts from the real conversation at hand. It’s a common technique to fracture unity on an issue.
Yeah make an enemy of your allies. That’s a great strategy
Are liberals allies to leftists, if liberalism supports the capitalist system? Leftists are aligned on overthrowing the present system, while liberals are opposed to that and seek to tweak it.
is who’s under attack here liberals, or protestors who didn’t realize how bad things were? i find the number of people who still don’t see the problem frustrating, but we’ll never get them to see the problem if the first thing we do when they start seeing the problem is call them fucking idiots.
i’ve seen way more success changing minds to leftism handing out soup to protests and saying “we’re glad you’re here” than i have when people hit the streets and they’re immediately told to get back inside.
no one can undo the propaganda machine of the right but the left. we do not at present have the numbers to have the People Power to do the very most effective actions like large scale general strikes or even open rebellion with the hope of not being obliterated by the B-1 bombers that the air force has repositioned to loiter over our own air spaces. so we have to take the attitude of the mother goose teaching her goslings how the world works and violently attacking the threats to those goslings, not the goslings themselves for not knowing.
and so we’re clear: i get the frustration. i feel it, too. but killing your inner pro-cop lib means realizing that there ever was an inner pro-cop lib in the first place because it was specifically nurtured by a media environment that can only really be escaped in a Mennonite community.
so go ahead and critique the people who aren’t out doing anything. they’re awful. but attacking people who woke up later than you isn’t helpful and is in fact harmful
I’m not attacking people that aren’t yet radicalized enough, or have been newly radicalized but haven’t yet organized and/or read theory. It’s important to attack liberalism itself, so that the radicalized liberals are freed from the shackles of that ideology. I’m more than aware of my liberal past, and I have to kill the liberal in my head every day.
It’s extremely common for people to combine their pre-existing biases from growing up and being educated in, working in, and living within the confines of bourgeois cultural hegemony with newly radicalized left-wing politics. Without going back and confronting our pre-existing stances, we actually end up warping our new radicalized beliefs to conform to our deeply instilled beliefs about existing socialism. This is how people that genuinely believe themselves to be socialists perpetuate liberal lines of logic and historical narratives.
Instead, we combat this through long periods of self-criticism and confrontation. We have to take our new knowledge, such as that of dialectical and historical materialism, and intentionally confront our pre-existing beliefs that came from liberalism. We all have this process to go through, and it’s never “complete,” either. It took me a long time to actually come around to supporting existing socialism, even after I began reading theory, because my frame of analysis was ultimately still liberal, and therefore my interpretations of theory were forced to fit in neatly with my existing world view, rather than uprooting the weeds and planting new seeds.
This process of dialectical growth and inward reflection is difficult and lengthy, which is why those that are in support of socialism tend to be far more knowledgable, well-read, and aren’t typically strangers to real political organizing. It takes tremendous energy to not only learn new information, but re-analyze existing conclusions that had faulty logic.
A handy analogy is looking at it through a computer program. If you have version 1 of a program spit out a bunch of outputs, and then fix a critical bug for version 2, you can’t just only rely on the new outputs, you have to confront the old outputs made with bad code and go through the new process. This is where people get tripped up ideologically.
We aren’t at all immune to this, though, we aren’t special people for having overcome it, and we aren’t ever fully free of liberalism. We have to fight it daily.
part of where i’m coming from is that i mostly or even wholly agree with this message, however my understanding of effective propaganda tells me that the context of a message matters almost as much as the message itself. i appreciate and respect your desire to kill not just your inner liberal, put to also help others kill theirs, but what i see in this meme, and what the threadstarter saw as well, is an attack on a self organized resistance movement with a lot of potential to grow new leftists, kill inner liberals, and create an overall movement towards existing socialism.
my critique of your first comment was that i think it actually undermines your stated aims in your second comment because it creates the impression that the protestors should not be supported because it should be assumed the protestors are liberals.
Is anybody an ally of you if they have other goals that are not yours???
So deep. Much thought. Philosopher. Wow.
Truly, you also participate in society, you fucking donut.
When the primary task is overthrowing the present system of late-stage imperialism, yes! I’m a Marxist-Leninist, but I consider anarchists and anti-imperialists of all stripes to be great allies. The problem with liberalism is that the underlying goals entrench imperialism and capitalism, not weaken it.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend etc
My point is that liberalism traps liberals into not actually fighting their real enemy, the capitalist class. Liberals exist as potential comrades, but without overcoming their liberalism they will end up supporting their own oppression.
