It’s more like active opposition to a theistic religions. For example many people think that “there’s no gods, and theistic religions are harmful to our society”
and they have just as much evidence as believers
This is very stupid way to put it. If you make a claim, you should provide the proof to support that claim. The claim is that there is a god or several, yet no proof to support that claim, which means that claim is plain made up shit and the logical conclusion “there’s no gods”
Because I just discovered it on wikipedia I think is worth adding ‘Ignostic’ - the belief that frankly it’s pointless even discussing any of this unless you can first define a deity. Seems bloody sensible to me.
Ignosticism sometimes want you to also define what “to believe” means.
Why? You can see in the comment you replied to.
When you are ignostic it is interesting that you can also be, agnostic and Christian by some definitions and antitheist by other definitions… A schrodinger christian.
In my experience grown up Catholics usually internalize more abstract definitions of God. Something between Love, Wisdom, Conscience and Inner voice, Goodnes,…
From the catholics I have close enough relationships I figured they internalized this kind of definiton. And as a kid by often overhearing my parents “marriage group” I figured this is quite common.
There was also a research (not sure how valid) that asked christians to draw God. Kids drew Jesus or old man with a grey beard watching from the sky. However grownups drew something abstract, like symbols, hearts or colors…
But if you will ask christians for a definition of God they will probably give you a textbook definition while not really believing in it.
There are also some subtle variations in agnosticism.
There’s the soft variety that says “there is no proof that convinces me either way but I won’t rule out that someone could come up with one”.
There’s the hard variety that says “I don’t think it’s possible to prove either way”.
There’s even a variety that says “it doesn’t matter whether (a) god exists or not, hence there’s no need for a proof”.
But yeah, the core of agnosticism is that you don’t believe the existence of (a) god has been conclusively proven or disproven and are unwilling to commit either way without that proof.
Seems like it’s gathered quite a wide definition but this is certainly how I’ve always understood it. If I was to ever start a cult I think it’d be based on militant agnostic fundamentalism.
My understanding was that atheism is the belief that there is no god(s), whereas to be agnostic is the absence of belief one way or another, i.e unable to prove or disprove existence of god(s). With this interpretation it’s more scientifically rational (for whatever that’s worth) to be agnostic than atheist.
The importance of such a distinction doesn’t merit much fuss beyond freshman philosophy though since you get some atheists who are absolutely evil cunts and plenty of genuinely good people of almost all religions.
Can you link me to something authoritative that shows that atheism makes the Positive Claim that “there is no god”? I’ve never seen that, and it seems wrong.
"Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. "
Agnostics are “I don’t know, probably not. It’s impossible to know.”.
Atheists are “I don’t think there’s a god, there’s no proof”.
Anti-theists are “there is definitely no god”, and they have just as much evidence as believers.
It’s more like active opposition to a theistic religions. For example many people think that “there’s no gods, and theistic religions are harmful to our society”
This is very stupid way to put it. If you make a claim, you should provide the proof to support that claim. The claim is that there is a god or several, yet no proof to support that claim, which means that claim is plain made up shit and the logical conclusion “there’s no gods”
See also Russell’s teapot
Because I just discovered it on wikipedia I think is worth adding ‘Ignostic’ - the belief that frankly it’s pointless even discussing any of this unless you can first define a deity. Seems bloody sensible to me.
…who can’t define a deity?
Ignosticism sometimes want you to also define what “to believe” means.
Why? You can see in the comment you replied to.
When you are ignostic it is interesting that you can also be, agnostic and Christian by some definitions and antitheist by other definitions… A schrodinger christian.
My hot take: If most atheists would use the same definition for God as most Christians do, they would consider themselves as Christians.
And most christians would be considered atheists if they used common atheist definition.
I’d like to hear this definition of god
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/25143640
Self-referencing Lemmy comment? Not as cool as the self-referencing tweet I saw many years ago
Sorry I meant to sent you this reply to someone else with the same question:
https://sh.itjust.works/comment/24471142
What is the definition for God most Christians use?
In my experience grown up Catholics usually internalize more abstract definitions of God. Something between Love, Wisdom, Conscience and Inner voice, Goodnes,…
From the catholics I have close enough relationships I figured they internalized this kind of definiton. And as a kid by often overhearing my parents “marriage group” I figured this is quite common.
There was also a research (not sure how valid) that asked christians to draw God. Kids drew Jesus or old man with a grey beard watching from the sky. However grownups drew something abstract, like symbols, hearts or colors…
But if you will ask christians for a definition of God they will probably give you a textbook definition while not really believing in it.
There are also some subtle variations in agnosticism.
There’s the soft variety that says “there is no proof that convinces me either way but I won’t rule out that someone could come up with one”.
There’s the hard variety that says “I don’t think it’s possible to prove either way”.
There’s even a variety that says “it doesn’t matter whether (a) god exists or not, hence there’s no need for a proof”.
But yeah, the core of agnosticism is that you don’t believe the existence of (a) god has been conclusively proven or disproven and are unwilling to commit either way without that proof.
Seems like it’s gathered quite a wide definition but this is certainly how I’ve always understood it. If I was to ever start a cult I think it’d be based on militant agnostic fundamentalism.
Ah, interesting. Never heard the term “Anti-theist,” but that does fit the bill a bit better.
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My understanding was that atheism is the belief that there is no god(s), whereas to be agnostic is the absence of belief one way or another, i.e unable to prove or disprove existence of god(s). With this interpretation it’s more scientifically rational (for whatever that’s worth) to be agnostic than atheist.
The importance of such a distinction doesn’t merit much fuss beyond freshman philosophy though since you get some atheists who are absolutely evil cunts and plenty of genuinely good people of almost all religions.
Atheism doesn’t make any positive claims. It doesn’t claim to know there is no god. That’s anti-theist.
Atheism makes the negative claim of: none of your god claims has sufficient evidence, therefore I don’t believe them.
Now, individual atheists themselves can say and do whatever. That’s on them.
Mhmmm… not quite. To claim there is no god is gnostic (or strong) atheism.
Anti-Theism is the conviction that belief in a deity or religion is foolish and overall something bad for society.
Can you link me to something authoritative that shows that atheism makes the Positive Claim that “there is no god”? I’ve never seen that, and it seems wrong.
Here’s my counter reference:
https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/about-atheism/
"Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. "
It’s not just about atheism in this, it’s about the gnosticism in combination.
Gnostic Theism = I am convinced by the claim there is a god. And I know my conviction is correct.
Agnostic theism = I’m convinced by the claim there is a god, but I don’t know if I’m right about that.
Agnostic atheism = I’m not convinced by the claim there is a god, and I don’t know if I’m right about that.
Gnostic atheism = I’m not convinced there is a god. And I know my (negative) conviction is correct.
Gnostic atheism is often also called positive, strong or hard atheism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_atheism
I’m a strong atheist myself, following this reasoning:
The “no arguments argument” for atheism:
It follows from (1) and (2) that